Werner Walter - The Interview

Our editor Peter Kleinferchner talked with the UFO scientist and author Werner Walter about UFOs, crop circles, and the scene in general. The interview was given reason by the publication of Walter's new book UFOs - Die Wahrheit [UFO's - The Truth]. Walter is one of the best known sceptics in Germany. He is a leading member of CENAP, the Centrales Erfassungs Netz Außergewöhnlicher Himmelsphänomene [Central Registration Net for Anomalous Phenomena in the Sky].

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Deutsche Version dieser Seite

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PK: Herr Walter, please give our readers some information about yourself.

WW: I'm 39 years old, retailing salesman by occupation, and I live in Mannheim.

PK: Since when are you dealing with the UFO phenomenon?

WW: Since 1973.

PK: How and why did you begin. Have you had a crucial experience?

WW: Well, I was playing with a schoolmate tabletennis, here in this quarter [in Mannheim] on October 5, 1973, about nine o' clock in the evening. It was after dusk, the ball was out and I ran after it. While I was picking up the ball I looked into the sky and saw a dark red trapezoidal figure. It moved horizontally, about 30 degrees from the ground across the Viernheimer Panzerwald [a forest]. I called my friend's attention to the object and he saw it at once. Suddenly, as if someone had switched off the light, it disappeared. It didn't die away, it simply went out. We live here near an approach lane to Frankfurt Airport and the largest American air base for helicopter maintenance is close by, but what we saw was quite different from that. Furthermore, both of us were in the school's astronomy club at that time, so we were able to mark the sighting off from other objects in the sky. This experience made us go to libraries to collect material about UFOs. There wasn't much to work ourselves in, only [Erich von] Däniken, who had published something in 68/69, in time for the landing on the moon. That was all. If I hadn't had this experience, I wouldn't have begun to take an interest in this field.

PK: What happened then?

WW: Well, some time later we had a class meeting and at a late hour we talked about the sighting. Our friends from the astronomy club had read a few articles about sightings in newspapers and somehow we got quite enthusiastic about it. We began to look through newspaper archives and so we collected more and more material. By accident I found in the Hohlspiegel, the satirical pages in the Spiegel, a newspaper clip about a UFO group in Wiesbaden, the Deutsche UFO/IFO Studiengesellschaft, DUIST, which still publishes the UFO-Nachrichten [UFO News]. We got in contact, became members, and finally we were their contact address here in Mannheim. We called ourselves at that time "Private UFO-Forschungsgruppe Mannheim" [Private UFO Research Group Mannheim] and consumed everything that was published by DUIST. After some time we noticed that their publications went all in direction of "our beloved brothers and sisters from outer space" who are here to save humankind from an atomic war. They believed in mediums like Georg Adamsky and Howard Mancher, who came over from America at that time to proclaim that they were the bearers of a message of salvation by our friends from the stars. We learned later on that the responsible leaders of the UFO group, Mr. and Mrs. Veidt, believed in the strangest esoterics. Mrs. Veidt had been a writing medium in Berlin, to "sit there and jot down" the spiritual messages of the other world. After a while we couldn't bear it any longer. The stories got worse and worse, like "on our moon, on it's backside, it looks like the Black Forest, happy cows are grazing on lush meadows, and on Venus it is the same, the Aliens have train systems and airlines with plushy sofas in it." That was too much. We asked the responsible persons what the idea was and they told us that the armies and governments were suppressing this truth. We didn't want to accept this and so we were thrown out of the organization. Nevertheless, we went to the regular meetings and asked critical questions. In the UFO-Nachrichten was an article about a sighting in Ansbach near Nuremberg, that was in 1973, and we drove there to do some research. The UFO sighting turned out to have been a red party balloon, so we demanded on a meeting to publish a notice that the article was incorrect. This didn't happen, of course, but we got to know what kind of methods were used to manipulate the opinions of the believers.

PK: Who established the CENAP and what does this acronym stand for?

WW: The founders were Hans-Jürgen Köhler, myself, and the schoolmate who saw the UFO while we were playing tabletennis, he is meanwhile a member of Jehovah's Witnesses. Furthermore, we have several free lance contributors who send us information and help with the research. CENAP meant in the beginning "Centrales Erforschungs Netz Außergewöhnlicher Phänomene" [Central Registration Net for Anomalous Phenomena], but this included too many aspects, so we changed the name into "Centrales Erforschungs Netz Außergewöhnlicher Himmelsphänomene" [Central Registration Net for Anomalous Phenomena in the Sky].

PK: How many members has CENAP, and how does the organization work? What does CENAP want?

WW: We are not incorporated or an official non-profit organization. It means too much administrative work which would make us much less flexible. We don't want the actual work to be disturbed too much.

PK: You have a controversial reputation in the UFO scene. How did it develop this way?

WW: Controversial is not quite right, we are damned and banned and this happened suddenly. DUIST had at that time about 10,000 members and was a very big organization. Only the USA had similar organizations, like APRO or NICAP, but in Germany DUIST was by far the biggest. They called us befouler of our own nest. You see, everyone who wanted to get some information about UFOs had to become automatically a member of DUIST and the members believed what DUIST wrote about us in the UFO-Nachrichten. As it often is with multiplicators of opinions, the majority is right and has to be believed, no matter if this is justified or not. Our research shows that many so called basic incidents are not what they seem to be. These findings attack the basic belief of all UFO enthusiasts. Someone who publishes the findings which put the pillar of their belief in questions wil have to suffer what we did. It is somehow like religion: if you try to take away a biblical miracle you will be fought. You are not allowed to talk about it, these are unimpeachable taboos.

PK: Your critical standpoint concerning UFO-sightings is well known. Do you think that all sightings can be explained, i.e. defined as known phenomena, or is there a rest of sightings which cannot be explained with conservative patterns?

WW: This is the most difficult but at the same time easiest question. First of all, you have to rephrase the question. UFO means "unidentified flying object", an appearance in the atmosphere which can't be explained by the observer. Such surveillances are quite common. At the moment more than ever before. So we have to ask if those who examine the problem have the required knowledge about the stimuli in the atmosphere that can cause UFO phenomena. This is the crucial problem. Because the evaluation of an UFO or IFO (identified flying object) is made by us UFO researchers and not by the public. We have to judge if the sighting was a real and authentic object or if it was a misinterpretation. If we, the UFO researchers, don't have the needed knowledge we will soon get onto thin ice and misinterpret any banal object an UFO and this is the crucial problem. There is an organization here in Germany - without naming a specific group - which does the Great Scientist, but has already told us, the CENAP, that they are not interested in IFOs. But someone who doesn't know about IFOs has, from my point of view, no justification to tell the public that he examines UFOs. Time and again this group stumbles over its own incompetence and ignorance.

PK: What is the name of the group you're talking about?

WW: MUFON-CES, of course.

PK: Do you think it is possible that the earth is being or has been visited by aliens?

WW: Well, the reports which are offered by paleo-SETI groups are no evidence for me that the earth had been visited by extraterrestrial lifeforms in prehistoric times. For the UFO era, e.g. the last 50 years, I also couldn't find any evidence that there have been objects not being from this planet. I don't know what will happen, I'm not a prophet or dubious clairvoyant. But I have to say one thing: due to my experiences, where astonishing incidents suddenly looked quite normal and earthly, I have my doubts that it makes sense to expect the sighting of a UFO. I myself don't have any hope.

PK: Please give a short statement to the names I will read out. Richard C. Hoagland

WW: He has been banned from the NASA's press office recently. He wanted to take advantage of the Boy Scout State and started a big media campaign: The Great Secret of Mars. And I think it does tell a lot that he has been officially kicked out of the room, doesn't it?

PK: John E. Mack

WW: Mack should study the phenomenon "UFO" first before he begins to concentrate on such a bizarre branch of the phenomenon. This is his big mistake, because he says he is not interested in the UFO phenomenon as such, he is only interested in abductions. The necessary insight into the phenomenon is lacking.

PK: Illobrand von Ludwiger

WW: He tries his best. And he has a wonderful idea, for sure. He is also one of the most respectable UFO-researchers in Germany but his arrogance towards others who are socially below him lets him often stumble. PK: Michael Hesemann WW: Gas-bag!

PK: Erich von Däniken

WW: He has made a lot of money and his hobby is his occupation.

PK: Hans Herbert Beier

WW: I don't know much about him because I'm not that much in the German crop circle scene. PK: Raymond Fowler WW: He is a man who has changed a lot. He did some good work in earlier days at NICAP. He was an example for me, but meanwhile he is hopeless, like John E. Mack and Jakobs. They are blindly enamored to their ideas, which will lead to nothing.

PK: Collin Andrews

WW: He is one of the most fascinating figures on the scene. He took care that the crop circle phenomenon was exported from England all around the world. Like the Americans who brought the UFOS to the world, Andrews made the circles popular. Meanwhile he focusses on the UFO phenomenon, I think, and he has lost his believe in crop circles. Now he tries to get his money out of a different pocket. We have already enough people who trim their sails to the wind.

PK: J. Koch und H.-J. Kyborg

WW: They have been MUFON-CES members, but they don't have a good reputation there. They got stuck fast in some obstruse idea about crop circles and Orion. The funny thing about this kind of topic is that you always find a thread that explains a lot. But the reflection to the outside, with others who also have some information, is missing and nobody really wants it. This is strange but common for the whole scene.

PK: Jürgen Krönig

WW: Jürgen Krönig is a good example of a serious journalist. He was enthusiastic about the idea in the beginning, but after some years, he said about the development of the crop circles and the doings in the scene: Wait a minute, maybe I was too enthusiastic about it. People who are fascinated by something but are still able to reflect about themselves and to refrain from their first ideas are okay. They should be an example for others.

PK: Do you see a relationship between UFOs and crop circles?

WW: Not in the phenomenon itself, neither in the fields nor in the sky. There is a common social aspect, because many young people find their way to UFOs via crop circles.

PK: Do you know Stephen Alexander's film?

WW: Yes, I know it. Everything is right in this film, only the conclusion is wrong. I think it was a silvery balloon for children which was carried by thermics through the fields. You can buy those balloons in Switzerland.

PK: What is, from your point of view, the reason that new pictograms appear every year?

WW: This will go on. Like new graffiti that appear every year on walls, new circles will appear. The artists who put these cicles into the fields are challenged every year again to create more complex and spectacular patterns. This is a natural development. Every year they got the kick to make better and more largescale pictograms. The public interest will diminish at the same time, so that the scene will produce only for itself in the end, without an effect in the world outside. The producers, I call them landart artists, will continue their work without publicity, too, just as the graffiti artists do.

PK: How are crop circles and esoterics related?

WW: Esoterics is a religion that points to your inside. But it can't exist without materialized wonders. The people were drawn to the circles by the symbolic power of the pictograms. This is what caught them. But I don't think that the artists had this intended when they began to make crop circles. The wonder which materialized in the circles is used to project ones wishes. This can lead to a placebo effect so that people feel good, of course, but this is not related to the circles.

PK: I would like to come back to the "Mars-Connection" as it is called by R. C. Hoagland. Was the failing of the last mission to mars simply bad luck?

WW: What else? You can always have technical problems. If this probe had been sent to Venus, no one would have cared. But the Mars stirrs emotions, so everyone believes in a conspiracy.

PK: If artefacts will be found on earth or Mars, shall they be made public?

WW: Yes, and it would be done. Such a thing would not be found by specialists but by Joe Average. And Joe will not lose control, he will make a fuss about it. If a meateor hits the earth, for example, and researchers want to examine it, it is a great problem to take the "thing from outer space" away from the public. If someone finds a UFO you could make him swear a thousand oaths, some information will leak out and someone will go to the New York Times or the Washington Post and the whole world would know about it the following day.

PK: Should an official UFO-research be organized in Germnany or worldwide? How should it be like?

WW: It would be good, but I don't see an opportunity in these times of empty pockets. So I wouldn't demand it, but it would be good if the Max-Planck-Institut would establish a research program, for example.

PK: How do you evaluate the coverage of "strange phenomena" in the media?

WW: It is all on a level of bad tabloid journalism. The interested individual who deals with the phenomenon overrates the interest of the media. It is miscellaneous. The media have a different approach to the phenomenon than we have.

PK: If you were the director of PRO 7 [the German cable channel that shows most of the "mysterious" programs, like X-Files], how would you cover the phenomena?

WW: This is interesting, nobody has asked me this question before. The executing manager has to make profits in business, but he is also held responsible for his doings by the public. Both aspects have to be balanced. I don't see this in our media so far. Neither with the commercial broadcasting stations, nor with the state-owned ones who take over the concept of the private stations, the so-called infotainment.

PK: Which books would you recommend newcomers in the scene and why?

WW: The newcomer runs straight to the next bookstore, where he finds literature which was written blindly by UFO enthusiasts. He will be confused and get a wrong impression of the scene - which happens since fifty years. He should read my new book first and get hold of a copy of Allen Hendry's book on the English market. The UFO Handbook has not been translated into German yet, although it was published as early as 1981. I can't recommend any of all the other books which are on the market now without pangs of conscience.

PK: Give a short outlook on the coming events in the scene. What kind of surprise will we have to face?

WW: The coming development will happen exactly like the one we had, only the images and the names of those who produce them will differ. The phenomena adjust to the times and they will do so in future times. At the moment we see the year 2000 coming, a peak in the UFO scene. If nothing happens then, everyone will calm down, but the rumours will continue. The probes to Mars will disappoint many and when the face on Mars will not be found because it was a unique silhouette, everyone will calm down and the guys in England will have to stamp quite a lot of patterns into the crop to get any attention.

PK: Some more questions concerning your book. Why did you write it?

WW: Out of frustration. In 1994, there was a report in [the state-owned channel] ARD at prime time about UFOs and everything that could have been wrong was wrong! The author Heinz Rohde called the CENAP just three days before the report was broadcasted. He told us he was very sorry that he didn't know anything about CENAP earlier so he couldn't include us in his program. The NDR is the second largest broadcasting station in Germany and they should not have been able to find anything about us in thirteen months, although nearly every newspaper has our name in their archives? This is absurd.

PK: Have you heard any critical comments so far, concerning your book UFOs - Die Wahrheit?

WW: I have given my address in the book. People who have read the book and wrote to me showed nearly all positive reactions. I have readers from all social classes, the comment I heard most of the time was, "This was necessary!" because the readers know about the other authors' onesidedness. They read all those books but they couldn't buy anything else.

PK: In the announcement which was published in the Magazin 2000, someone blotted out your name. How do we have to interpret this?

WW: It would be the worst kind of promotion for my book if my name would appear on the cover in an advertisement in a magazine like the Magazin 2000, in which I am always referred to as a militant UFO sceptic. My publisher blotted out the name so that those who would have shrunk when reading my name still had a chance to read the book. Aside from that, the editor of the Magazin 2000 would have never published the advertisement with my name in it.

PK: Just one last question: Your sighting from 1973 analysed with your knowledge from today. What was it?

WW: As it happens, I was years later at the Berlin Radio Fair, where laser projections were shown for the first time. They weren't red but green, otherwise they looked exactly like the trapezoid figure I had seen in the sky several years before.

PK: Thank you very much for this interview.